News Xchange 2002: Session Transcripts 10 october 2002 Session 1: The Doomsday Scenario: How to cover a "Dirty Bomb" Word of a major explosion in a European capital reaches your newsroom. Your first reaction is to scramble crews and producers to get to the site. Shortly thereafter, you receive unconfirmed reports that the army, the atomic energy agency and the city's Hazardous Materials emergency staff are also rushing to the scene. The wires are now reporting that the government is asking everyone to leave a 10km area and that press access will not be granted. It's possible the nightmare scenario has happened – it's possible the bomb was radioactive. A dirty bomb blowing up in a capital city would surely be the biggest story since September 11th, perhaps bigger. However, issues that newsrooms have never faced arise. Do you try to get as close to this huge story as possible or is your first priority to protect your employees? As the facts change minute-by-minute, what do you present on the air? What risks do you take, both for your staff and for your editorial integrity? We're going to go live to the site of the “explosion” and get reactions from journalists who may be within the perimeter of the safety zone at the time of the explosion for their reactions and how they handle the situation. We'll also go live to a number of other newsrooms to get their reactions as to how they would handle the scenario. Geoffrey Robertson, the noted lawyer, international human rights campaigner and television presenter, chairs this session, which features a first-rate international panel of news managers, journalists, cameramen and safety experts, including the senior safety officer of the International Atomic Energy Agency, to discuss and debate all the issues that would arise from this nightmare scenario. Chair: Geoffrey Robertson, QC Producers: Simon Bucks, Sky News and Jim Akhurst, EBU Confirmed Participants: • Nigel Baker, Director of Content, APTN, UK • Kris Borgraeve, Correspondent, VTM, Belgium (via satellite) • Edith Chapin, Deputy Bureau Chief & Managing Editor, CNN New York • Victor Carrera, Head of News Production, TV3, Spain • Joel-Francois Dumont, Senior Journalist, FR3, France (via satellite) • Eugen Freund, Correspondent, ORF, Austria • Nik Gowing, Main Presenter, BBC World • Arnd Henze, Correspondent, ARD/WDR Cologne (via satellite) • Suzette Knittl, deputy London bureau chief, NBC News • Tony Loughran, head of safety, BBC, UK • Dmitry Mednikov, head of foreign news, RTR Russia • Rolf Porseryd, Foreign Correspondent, TV4 Sweden • John Ryley, Executive Editor, Sky News, UK • Vaughan Smith, Frontline Television News & Rory Peck Trust, UK • Richard Tait, former editor-in-chief, ITN, UK • Klaus van Isacker, head of news, VTM, Belgiium • David Butler, Special Projects Manager, Bruhn-Tech, UK • Tom McKenna, Division of Radiation and Waste Safety, Emergency Preparedness & Response Unit, International Atomic Energy Agency, Vienna • Mike Granatt, Head of the UK Civil Contingency Secretariat, London • Andrew Kain, Managing Director, AKE Ltd • Marc Robberechts, General Manager, Orbit Omega, Belgium • Gaby Rosenberg, Chairman, Jerusalem Capital Studios, Israel • Dr. Peter Stegnar, Slovenian Institute of Atomic Energy TRANSCRIPT: Geoffrey Robertson (GR): It's 7.45 GMT ladies and gentlemen and all is well. Bush and Rumsfeld are safely in bed, no casualties yet in the Middle East, no election results in Pakistan not even a small earthquake in Chile. The Euro is steady and that's the lead story on the Sky Breakfast News, what you might call a slow news day. John Ryley, are you looking forward to today you're going to lunch at the Savoy there'll be nothing in the news to stop you getting away, it's the Television Society Awards, you're getting an award for the most creative news editing, presented by Rupert Murdoch. Look forward to going? John Ryley (JR): I tend not to go out of the office at lunchtime I'm rather boring like that, I stay eating a sandwich at my desk. GR: You'll go and get the prize but you've got a cold is that going to stop you? JR: No GR: The cold's not going to stop you, you'll be meeting greeting, infecting a lot of TV people, Rupert Murdoch will shake your hand, that's the way most cold germs are transmitted. He'll fly with your cold, get middle ear infection maybe bronchitis, pneumonia. You could kill this proprietor with your cold but you'll go none the less. Nik Gowing you're going to this prestigious luncheon at the Savoy. Looking forward to it? You're sitting next to Tony Loughran, you've seen the seating plan you could have a word in his ear about safety standards for BBC reporters. Nik Gowing (NG): Very much so! GR: You've got a cold, is that going to stop you? NG: It depends who I shake hands with. GR: Well you're not going to shake hands but your word in Tony Loughran's ear is going to spread your bug. You're the head of safety at the BBC are you going to be safe sitting next to Nik, you've seen him on the news coughing and spluttering. Tony Loughran (TL): Absolutely, I've been immunised against everything else so Nik will be fine with me. GR: You know the dinner organiser, you could get her to swap you with Suzette Knittl, let her sit next to Gowing get his cold. TL: Yes that's what I'd do. GR: You'd do that, very well. That's the organisation and that's what's happening in London. Meanwhile in far away Slovenia, Dr Stegnar you are the advisor to the Slovenian government on radioactivity and you get an urgent call this morning to accompany your foreign minister to a briefing from the US ambassador to Slovenia, Mr Bud Weiser. Mr Weiser tells you and the Prime Minister, “my government has received credible information that an Al Qaeda cell is operative in Europe and they're imminently planning an attack on US targets in capital cities, we want you to keep this secret but we fear they have a radioactive device”. What advice do you give the minister and the police chief when you leave the embassy? Dr Peter Stegnar (PS): Well it's an interesting question. We would first of all try and get information on what kind of radioactivity is going to be released and then we would organise ourselves according to the procedures and rules in the country on how to act in an emergency situation. I would advice the minister to keep all the information confidential until we could get more reliable information as to what it's all about. GR: Are you sure your police have all the right equipment, do they have anti-radiation suits? And gas masks and Geiger counters and so forth? PS: It's not only the police; you see there are many bodies in Slovenia adequately equipped with all the protective equipment and measuring equipment to detect the size of the radioactivity. GR: In the capital city Ljubliana you think the police and other bodies will be able to deal with it? PS: Not only the police but also the civil defence with the support from the technical institutions like my organisation. So we are capable of reacting immediately when such an event happens. GR: Mike Granatt, the information that has been conveyed to European governments this morning by the US ambassadors isn't happening in London because the CIA work with British intelligence as partners. So you know that this threat is out there, you've been asked to advise the security services, the Americans want to keep this quiet, they don't want to tell the media. Do you go along with that advice? Mike Granatt (MG): At this juncture probably, the bottom line for me is public safety, what do we do to make sure the public are as safe as possible. So my immediate reaction is to make sure we know where our plans are. That we can do something in the event of an incident even outside London. At the moment I can't see what is to be gained by making the information public. GR: What is to be gained is greater awareness amongst the public if someone is planting a ‘dirty bomb' they're more likely to apprehended if the public are alerted. And what is to be gained since they are US targets is that surely people have a right to know if they're planning to go to American Express or stay at a Holiday Inn that they might be in some danger. MG: I think that people are well aware now that there are particular places and organisations that might be at risk in this day and age, the question to be asked is how best do we apprehend these people? Do we need to talk about a ‘dirty bomb' at this stage how do we know that this information is as good as it might be? GR: British intelligence knows that this information is reliable. MG: But we don't know yet where it's likely to strike or not. Now do we cause a certain amount of panic and actually hinder our ability to spot what is coming because we set into motion a whole train of activity not least hoaxes. As soon as one announces that there might be something happening I'm afraid it's a fact of modern life not just in London or in other capitals that hoaxes start to run. Now one of the things that I would try to do is to make sure the environment the police and security services are operating is as open as possible to analysis of things that might stop it happening. GR: So at this stage you're planning to keep the information secret from the media of Europe, some very alert members of which like Eugen Freund in Vienna have noticed that their foreign ministers have cancelled engagements. This morning your foreign minister was going to open the Miss Austria competition and he cancelled at the last minute pleading that he had a cold. You know the foreign minister better than that would you call one of your contacts and see what's up? Eugen Freund (EF): I know her so well that I know he is a she so I'm not quite sure that she would go to the opening of the Miss Austria competition, so I wouldn't be too surprised if she didn't go. GR: But you are surprised that she gave the excuse of having a cold? EF: Yes I would be surprised if she had cancelled a previous engagement whatever that was. GR: You call your contact and you find out that she's been summoned to meet the US ambassador would you like to know? Would you make some calls and se from your excellent contacts in government whether you could find out what was happening. EF: I would certainly call one of my best friends who happened to have worked with me in the US who happens to be press spokesman of the foreign minister now so he would probably confide to me what he knows. GR: If he confides to you that there is credible information that an Al Qaeda group is active and is planning a bombing of an American target using a radioactive device and he says please keep this confidential. EF: I would definitely keep this confidential for the time being because just as my colleague said before you have to keep a balance between creating panic and the right of the people to know what is going on. GR: Right of the people to know that the biggest US target in Vienna today is the NY City ballet which is opening at the Staats Opera and you get a call from your wife and she says “Eugen, guess what, I've got tickets for the ballet tonight”. What do you tell her? EF: I would tell her that I would probably rather go to the Miss Austria contest. I would urge her to let me go by myself or join me. GR: Maybe she could give the tickets to your Mother in Law? EF: Exactly, that would be a splendid idea. GR: So you would use the information to protect yourself but not to allow citizens of Vienna to make their own minds up as to whether they go to the ballet, go to the US Embassy or go to American Express today. EF: But you are giving me information about any time in the morning and the NY ballet will be performing in the afternoon or the evening and we will have many hours between now and then for more information to gather and also to decide what the public needs to know and by that time we will have been informed or something would have happened anyway. GR: Very well. Edith Chapin in New York, you get this information from a source CNN has in the CIA, is that something that you would broadcast the danger to all those Americans that are in Europe? Edith Chapin (EC): It's certainly something that is going to be discussed with senior management, people are going to talk about it and debate it. Try and confirm it, look at other sources not just American sources. GR: The confirmation you have is that this warning has been delivered secretly by US ambassadors in every capital city in Europe. EC: If we can attribute it I expect that we would be cautious in how we report it. GR: Do you report that there is a new Al Qaeda threat in Europe? Or do you report that it's a threat of a radioactive possibly nuclear device in Europe big difference isn't there? EC: Huge difference, I think it would depend on what our sources are willing to say, if they're willing to say that they have it absolutely confirmed that there's a radiation threat then we'll carefully frame it but not shy away from the fact. GR: You would consider how to report it or whether to report it all. A number of media organisations are considering it, Dmitry Mednikov you are in Brussels as a news editor for Russian TV you have a girlfriend quite highly placed in the foreign office in Belgium who tells you of the briefing of the Belgian foreign minister. You know the story what do you think about it? Everybody's being very tentative about reporting it, maybe it's more CIA disinformation maybe it's not a story at all, you know that America is trying to get NATO support for its attack on Iraq maybe it's a bit of panic in Europe maybe it's CIA disinformation? Dmitry Mednikov (DM): To me it seems we should balance between sources and news, when we know this is exact information. GR: Your source is pretty good she's a pretty good girlfriend. DM: The source is for me a possibility to prepare for the news. So I won't react to the opinion of the sources I should react to the news so that when it happens we will be prepared to cover it. GR: So while the TV media is debating at executive level whether and how to put it out, John Ryley, it appears on Reuters, does that change it for you? JR: Yes it probably does if I'm living in the real world, we would probably go for it and attribute it Reuters, it depends what the Reuters snap says. GR: If it's in quick it's somehow more credible than a source that's come to a TV reporter? JR: No not more credible just easier for us to bite on. GR: Easier for you defend your decision, so TV is not leading the news TV will wait until it's there in print and use that as an excuse? JR: Not as an excuse but as another source. GR: Edith Chapin does the appearance of this story on Reuters change it for you does it settle the debate in NY? EC: It definitely doesn't settle it, it probably get executives more excited and a lot more scrambling and conference calls to say “I wonder what their sources are can we try and parse what this means” but it has to come down to our sources, our responsibility. GR: So the fact that it's out on Reuters settles the debate everyone is going to report it the question is how? Let's look at a package that all news agencies have prepared against an eventuality of having a dirty bomb story. Here is the package. (Runs video clip) GR: That report from Tim Marshall, accurate do you think Tom McKenna? Tom McKenna (TMcK): Totally inaccurate! GR: How? TMcK: In many ways based on our experience and a lot of work that we've done and we have a lot of experience we think that a dirty bomb could affect maybe a few blocks at most, hundreds of metres, not kilometres. Chances of any excess deaths are very small probably caused by the bomb itself. GR: I guess it depends what's in the bomb? TMcK: To a large extent it doesn't because of the nature of dispersal, bombs don't throw things very far. Reactors do a great job because there's a lot of heat and energy. We however would expect a lot of consequences because of people reacting in the wrong way because they had the wrong information. The biggest consequences of Chernobyl most people think were unnecessary abortions so they hear the news they'll abort the baby. GR: Inaccurate, Dave Butler? David Butler (DB): I would tend to agree with Tom, there's a lot of hype out there about the consequences and certainly in our experience once the things actually gone off it's actually less harmful than before it has actually exploded. GR: But it is going to cause some harm depending on what's in it? If it's strontium or Cesium or Uranium of the type that was found with Al Qaeda in Kandahar. DB: Sure you're going to get the hot spot near the seat of the actual explosion and then you'll get some of that atomised and drift on the wind-line but as Tom was saying, in a built up city we know a lot about how explosives work in cities and the distribution of the fragments may not be tens of blocks as people are supposing. GR: It may depend on whether it's delivered in a car-bomb with a lot of explosives or in a briefcase bomb with very few? DB: Sure, absolutely GR: It may depend on what is used whether it is enriched uranium or cesium or strontium as against some less harmful product like americium? DB: It would depend on the stuff that's being used but by and large it will all do you harm if you breathe it in that's where the most damage is going to come from. If you've got a piece of radioactive shrapnel stuck in you then by and large it's generally very easy to find you just use a detector to find it and dig it out. It's the breathing in of the particles that's going to cause the long term damage. GR: Let me ask you DR Stegnar, you've had some worrying news in Ljubljana this morning there was a man admitted to the general hospital last night, he had vomiting and diarrhea and hair loss and bleeding, diagnosed with radiation sickness; he's in an isolation ward. The police went to his home with Geiger counters and found high levels of radioactivity and fragments that indicated that he had been building a bomb or more than one. Does that concern you? PS: Well it will certainly give you an indication of the source in this particular bomb and it's very important to see what the source of the radioactivity which was built in the bomb it's much the same if there is cobalt residue for cobalt waste or it was made of cesium or other radioactive materials. GR: This man Ali Muhammed, his brother Hashim who is suspected by the police of being an Al Qaeda operative has disappeared. Doesn't this mean that the ‘dirty bomb' may be about to go off in Ljubljana? PS: Well it's possible of course. GR: It's very possible if the man who made it is an isolation ward, still alive mind you and he's the only one who would know where it is? PS: That's correct; it would necessary to interrogate him, what happened when the bomb went off and to find the source of the bomb.... GR: He's being interrogated as we speak the message back is that he's admitted that he is a suicide bomb maker, he's looking forward to his death, to going to paradise where the 74 virgins are waiting to minister his needs. The interrogating officer says that he won't speak unless we attach some electrodes to the places where the virgins might be minded to administer his needs, would you approve of that course? PS: No I wouldn't because it's not necessary. GR: It is necessary, any moment now a radioactive bomb could go off in Ljubljana, putting Ljubljana on the map by wiping it off the map. PS: Well in this particular case any means should be used. GR: He won't talk, he's looking forward to paradise, the only way of making him talk is to torture him. Isn't torture in those circumstances justified? PS: It's a very difficult question I would say in a way yes. GR: In a way yes and you would expect that your police chief who slept in this morning and isn't at the Grand Hotel for a media conference would actually support torture? PS: It's difficult for me to answer this question it depends on the police decision but I would expect them to do everything to locate and to minimise the threat of exploding the dirty bomb in Ljubljana GR: Rolf Porseryd, you're in Ljubljana looking for a story, not many stories in Ljubljana the Dormouse night is about to happen, according to the guide books it's the start of the Dormouse hunting season you're very big on hunting Dormice is that because it's a very short season? Rolf Porseryd (RP): It's only a few days; I don't think it's still allowed it's a kind of traditional one. GR: People dress up and stay up late into the night, it's one of the stories you've got, Slovenian bears they're toilet training them so they won't defecate in the woods but it's not a good place for stories and you get wind of a suspect Al Qaeda member in an isolation ward in the hospital. Would you have any questions for Dr Stegnar who's the government expert dealing with this? RP: Certainly, why is he there? PS: It's difficult to know. There are probably two main reasons one is that he contaminated himself when he was preparing the bomb but it is unlikely that the radiation sickness would develop in this particular process. And the other is that he in fact exploded the bomb and he was hurt and brought to the hospital and it's a post event consequence. GR: The US ambassador did ask you to treat this as top secret! PS: Oh well, it used to be a top secret but when this particular evidence is revealed we have a legitimate tool to carry on and try to fix and find out what is happening if the bomb exploded? GR: Now you've spoken to the helpful Dr Stegnar it's no longer a secret RP: First of all I would ask myself am I in danger myself, what is the level of danger right now? GR: I don't think Dr Stegnar has been into the isolation ward so it's unlikely that he's contaminated, David Butler? DB: I would suspect that he's not and if they've got him in an isolation ward then everyone who's dealing with that patient has probably got protective clothing on anyway. RP: Next I would have to call my office in Stockholm and tell them we have a good story coming up. GR: Let's assume that Gaby Rosenberg is running your office in Stockholm what would you say to him? RP: Probably, Gaby we have a good story in Ljubljana, Al Qaeda guy isolated in the hospital, do you want me to stay on and start to do the story? Pull out? What is the first step? Do you think I'm in danger? Gaby Rosenberg (Gaby R): I'm not in a position where I am to know or not so if you were my man on the spot I would expect you to answer this question yourself and to advise me whether you are in danger or not so that I could take a decision about what to do about you and your staff and whether I am going to allow you to cover the story or not. So I would urge you number 1 to find out what is your personal situation and to try to verify how reliable the source is. GR: One of the Dormouse hunters you interviewed last night was a nurse at the hospital and you contact her, she says “if you put on a face mask I'll pretend your a doctor and let you go in to where they seem to be attaching electrodes to Mr Ali Muhammed's testicles. RP: I would hesitate to go in because I haven't got that experience and I'm not sure if I am safe I'd rather stay away for a while until I know more. GR: He's going to miss a great story if he adopts that attitude Mr Rosenberg? Gaby R: I'm afraid so. GR: Is he in any danger David Butler if he goes in with his digital camera pretending it's some new medical instrument and watches the torture that Ali Muhammed is going through? DB: Probably not, he's more at danger as a lot of them do is to go and find where this guy lives and search round that area. That's where if it had gone off or there had been a device there in my opinion the greatest danger might be. But in the hospital environment, assuming he could get that close still probably not in any great danger. GR: Not too dangerous in the hospital environment but if he went to the flat where he's been building the bomb where there are high levels of radioactivity what's the danger? DB: Well the danger is residual radiation, if they're not sure whether it's gone off or if it's still in one piece and they can't find the source then it could be a substantially above normal background radiation in the guy's flat where they're going to go and look. GR: Well ladies and gentlemen the police have discovered that 3 days ago the Al Qaeda operative Hashim Muhammed Ali's brother left Ljubljana heading for Trieste driving a brown Ford, sounds as though Ljubljana is safe he's obviously taking the bomb to middle or western Europe. I wonder if we can get some more specificity on those targets? I guess Eugen Freund you're putting in some calls to your contacts, seeing if you can find something more specific about those targets? EF: I think right now if I understand the story correctly we are in a quandary because CNN has put out a story that says Al Qaeda is trying to explode a dirty bomb somewhere in Europe that is as much as we know. CNN is relatively easy in this respect because they are reporting from New York and they are not, from what they know and have reported, the primary target which means that for us it will be much more difficult to disseminate this kind of message to inform the audience. So on one hand it's out on CNN, meanwhile Austrian TV still hasn't reported it. GR: Has Sky reported it John Ryley? JR: Yes I think we probably have. GR: Has NBC reported it Suzette? SK: We're trying to be responsible but maybe. GR: But once it's out on Sky and CNN it's hard to ignore isn't it? It's number 1 story. We know that it's a threat to a US target in a European capital, can we get any closer? I wonder what's happening in Cologne, do we have Arnd Hanser in Cologne? Good morning, you know about the dirty bomb threat to a US installation in Europe, you've been making your inquiries to sources in German military intelligence who tell you that it's thought that it may be a NATO installation that or office that is at threat because of NATO's support for the attack on Iraq and it is probably somewhere in western Europe, Madrid is suggested as has Paris. Would you having got that from a highly placed source add that to the story that you're running? Arnd Henze (AH): Yes I think if this is credible information then we would certainly give this breaking news to the audience probably by special edition of the so called Tageschau. I think that's the scenario that's been in many peoples' minds for a while. Let me point out that in situations like that we probably wouldn't have fixed abstract or professional standards but we would have standards at that point that are also derived from our previous experiences after 9/11 and they are highly personal. I would like to point out two of them, one is we nearly lost a cameraman in an event like that on 9/11 when the 1st Tower collapsed and he survived by a miracle and got all sorts of major TV awards after that and the producer is still in therapeutic treatment, so we would be very careful about putting our own personnel at risk. GR: But of course if this dirty bomb is in Madrid, that's important news for you in Madrid because you're safe? AH: We would broadcast that. GR: You would broadcast that to tell people in Germany that they can worry a bit less it will only be the Spaniards that suffer. AH: I think we would point out that this is unconfirmed information and that there's credible speculation about the source of this bomb and we would be very careful to speculate ourselves but I think this is news we definitely have to broadcast. GR: Thank you very much we'll come back to you later. Victor Carrera, you get the news that a station in Cologne is broadcasting reports that the dirty bomb may well be destined for NATO offices in Madrid. Is that something that you think you Spanish audience has a right to know? Victor Carrera (VC): Yes I think so; it has already been broadcast by other media... GR: In Cologne! VC: We would give the information we had at that point. GR: So basically if unconfirmed information is broadcast anywhere in Europe which is relevant to you in Madrid you will broadcast it in Madrid? VC: Not us we would broadcast it in Barcelona where fortunately we are based. GR: So you would put it out and cause a degree of concern, would you put out the dirty bomb package that we saw earlier? VC: A bomb in Spain is pretty much business as usual; it would very much depend on what was in the bomb and I would probably give only reliable and confirmed information. GR: So you would say that it is being reported that Madrid may be a target. You would put out the dirty bomb package to let people know what your reporters thought they might be in store for and you would probably get an expert like TMcK to put in perspective? VC: Of course I would. GR: I see what about the NATO offices in the Ministry of Defence just down the road from the Prado would you think maybe of sending a reporter, just to see whether they've stepped up security? VC: Of course I would send reporters to all affected ministries. GR: Vaughan Smith is working for you as a camera man, what instructions if any do you give him? VC: “There's the threat of a bomb, something you know quite well but this time we suspect it could be a dirty bomb, we still don't know the nature of the source but we want to make sure that you're all safe. Let's keep in touch, you are the ones to assess the situation on the spot and we will gather information on all possible reliable sources. We have get in touch minute by minute.” GR: Do you drive on to the Prado? Vaughan Smith (VS): I'm on my way Victor, I do take the precaution of checking the prevailing wind. GR: It's a hot Spanish day you're in shirtsleeves, shorts, digital camera; you're honking your horn like a typical Spaniard in Madrid. VS: If I could get a gas mask then I would certainly get that. GR: There aren't any gas masks on the road to the Prado. VS: Victor see if you can sort me out a gas mask please. GR: Is that all you'd take? VS: I would take my normal stuff, I would consider while I'm driving down to ring some safety adviser... GR: Ring Dave Butler and see whether you're missing anything. VS: David I'm in a bit of a hot spot here, need the money got to go. Advice what do I do? DB: How much are you being paid to go? VS: Well I'm never paid enough but I'm going to go. DB: Well certainly you may well want to take with you some form of personal ‘dose-meter' GR: What is that? A dose-meter DB: Well I never leave home without mine. GR: What sort of doses does it meter? DB: It meters Beta and Gamma radiation and x-rays in particular and just measures the does of the background radiation in an area. GR: It tells you how many micro-sebers you're actually copping, you get two micro-sebers don't you from normal oxygen and air levels? DB: On average. Certainly from my recordings around the world about two micro-sebers a day would be an average: GR: So there you are you've got your dose-meter, do you know what to do with it? VS: No but I'm going to get a briefing on the mobile. GR: Just before you have the briefing, up ahead of you is the Prado about 1000 metres from the NATO offices, you hear a bomb. The traffic stops, people running away it sounds like a car bomb, what do you do? Turn back? VS: No I don't turn back, I have taken the precaution of trying to find the prevailing wind, it is a hot sunny day but there is some wind and I'm going to try and approach it by foot, to a point that with a long lens I can see some sort of blast but I'm going to keep the wind coming from behind me. GR: Is that wise? DB: Certainly there's one other piece of equipment which I never leave home without and I would suggest that he took with him an oral/nasal mask. GR: It's a bit too late for that. DB: I was trying to call back to him as he drove down the road. GR: Victor Carrera, the car bomb as far as you know seems to have gone off the police aren't releasing any details but they're evacuating a rather larger area than you would expect if it was the boring old ETA bomb. You've got a reporter in there should you be getting him out? Or getting him deeper in? You've got to call him. VC: It's a difficult call. Try to follow the instructions of the police don't expose your life unnecessarily. VS: Well I'm beginning to get a little bit worried because everybody around me is beginning to panic at the same time I've got some footage and I'm thinking that I should pull out, I'm also trying to renegotiate with Victor! GR: If this is the first dirty bomb you've got a story that will go round the world haven't you? VS: That's why I'm trying to renegotiate with Victor! GR: Basically it's Chernobyl with Bin Laden and the Towers combined. It's the first terrorist dirty bomb and you're the first camera-man in the area. VS: But I am worrying about my health a bit now? GR: Are you walking rather than running toward the bomb? VS: I'm certainly finding that moving is quite difficult and I'm finding that on foot is the best way of getting around reliably and I've just decided that I'm going to pull back. GR: But before you do you pull out some binoculars and a long way in the distance you see a car that clearly has had a bomb in it and it's gone off. Is there any way of telling, TMcK, whether there's radioactivity just from the sight of the car? TMcK: That's one of the big problems you can't smell it taste it or feel it. GR: You can't smell it, taste it or feel it, it looks like an ordinary car bomb. VS: But I do realise that people believe it to be a nuclear device don't I? GR: Are you in or are you out? Does it matter that you're already contaminated, David Butler? DB: Probably not he's already noted what way the wind was blowing which is a good starter but if it's just an explosion then as long as he wasn't covered in dust, or he wasn't on the wind-line then he's probably at this stage ok. GR: Suzette Knittl, what's NBC doing, you've got the explosion in Madrid somewhere near the NATO offices and you've got the dirty bomb warning that you've put out; SK: We're certainly reporting it at this point if we've got an actual explosion we're definitely talking to Spanish TV about down-linking. GR: Well call Victor Carrerra SK: Well hopefully I'm on the phone to Victor at this point. “Tell me what's going on? What do you know that we don't know?” VC: There's three things to tell you, you've seen the pictures, you know there's been a bomb explosion we still don't know the nature of it we are assessing the situation and we are sending our crew out of the area. SK: OK what we'll do is go with your pictures then and we're going to try and send people from London but we are also going to try and talk to our own experts, talk to people about terrorism. Andrew Kain is somebody that we've had conversations with maybe I'll give him a call in London. GR: Give him a call, you're going to send people into a possible radioactive zone? SK: Andrew what do we do? I know what I want to do I'm going to try and be responsible here but I also want to get the story we're competitive CNN's going to be all over it in 2mins what do we do? Andrew Kain (AK): I would advise you to stay out of the area until it confirmed one way or another and staying at a safe distance. Get people ready but also contact DB about equipment you might need but at the moment stay out until something is confirmed. GR: You're getting a lot of calls David Butler. Edith Chapin in NYC what's CNN doing? Are you sending people from NYC or are you sending CNN people from Madrid. EC: We're probably relying on CNN people in Madrid and London but you can be assured the phone lines are burning up to all kinds of intelligence authorities to see what they're hearing back. Is this really Al Qaeda? How strong are the readings that the health officials are getting? There's a lot you can do without being at the scene. GR: John Ryley, how's it playing on Sky? It's starting to stack up isn't it? JR: Up to a point, I think we'd be on the phone to Victor saying give us you pictures if you've got any. But I think at the moment, and tell me if I'm wrong, we don't know at all the nature of this explosion? It could be some disaffected Spaniard who's decided to blow up his car. GR: It could be that the Supreme Court upheld the ban on Batistuna, the car bomb seems to be past the NATO offices it seems that Vaughan Smith is outside the palace of justice. Do you think you've got a story? VS: If it's a bomb with nuclear material then yes I've got a story. GR: The police tell you that there are no innocent victims, just a couple of passing lawyers. Sounds more like ETA doesn't it? VS: Indeed it does. GR: You got a call VC from an ETA source claiming responsibility, it must be disappointing you're being offered enormous sums of money from all round the world for this film are you going to tell them ETA has claimed responsibility or are you going to sell them the film that Vaughan has taken. VC: Just after selling the film I will try to be honest and acknowledge this call. GR: ETA has claimed responsibility and the police confirm that it's an orthodox car bomb, no radioactivity found in the area. Nik Gowing you're presenting the news at 11 o/c, you've been running the dirty bomb film all morning and linking in with the bomb in Spain. What would you expect to report now? NG: I'm not sure we would have been running the dirty bomb film necessarily for a start. And secondly I think at the back of my mind as somebody who has sat there through many similar incidents it would be a matter of public safety versus public security. With my colleagues behind me trying to work through the editorial process. But this is very similar to me to what happened 2 1/2 months ago in Madrid just before a football match and one of the problems we had then was between the Spanish Federal Police and the Madrid police and the confusion between the police and intelligence services. So I'm pretty skeptical about the level of information we're getting out of Spain. GR: Do you think the 11o/c news bulletins will report the mistake that so many members of the media have made in linking the explosion in Spain with the dirty bomb warning? NG: Well that's your judgment that it's a mistake, If we sourced adequately all that's been said up 'til now then it's not our mistake it's a judgment call... GR: It's an unfortunate coincidence? NG: No but there are judgments being made by a large number of agencies and media organisations and all of them should be sourcing exactly where that information comes from, possibly putting a rider on it and a caution on it. Saying we're not sure for ourselves but it is being reported by the State Dept or whoever, we've been through this once before with John Ashcroft the Attorney General before 9/11, so we're stacking up experiences here of how to deal with this information. I don't think it's our mistake I think it's a legitimate level of reporting as the hours and minutes have gone past. GR: Arnd Henze, come in from Cologne, it would appear that your source in the ministry and in the German intelligence was not that accurate. AH: That's because we never reported that there was a source linking this bombing to the dirty bomb threats and this bombing. So it would be enough to say luckily enough it wasn't a dirty bomb. GR: It's only 10.40am and it's quite possible that a dirty bomb will still go off in Madrid later in the day? AH: We don't speculate. GR: You don't speculate. Thank you very much. Well ladies and gentlemen here is the news the world has been waiting for. Nigel Baker the news came to you this morning, you run a pretty good news agency, you've got sources who are many and various and some pretty dubious. You are taken by a confidential source in conditions of anonymity to the basement of a mosque in north London and you are shown a tape that lasts about a minute of a man speaking in Arabic, I'll show you a still from it. Do you recognise him? Nigel Baker (NB): Yes I think so. GR: You'll see interestingly enough that he's holding a copy of the Herald Tribune for September 11 and if you look at it closely you'll see it's September 11 2002. What does that mean? NB: Well it means obviously that he is alive and his whereabouts could potentially be known. GR: They want £50,000 for it, you could sell it to every and any media org, it's clearly genuine, he talks only for a minute but you can hear NATO and Iraq and it's clear that he's talking about topical issues. NB: I think you'd want to know how that tape was originated. Who has sourced it and where it's come from. GR: Satisfied that it's genuine? NB: Satisfied that it's genuine but you wouldn't pay anybody if they demanded money if you thought the money was going to a potential terrorist source. GR: No it's going to victims of the trust that's been set up for victims of the US bombs that are going to hit Iraq. NB: I think you would be highly dubious about that. NB: There's a British expression “pull the other one”, the difficulty with that is how do you know? GR: You'd make millions out of this. NB: We wouldn't in fact because obviously for us this would be a scoop or exclusive but we wouldn't profit directly from it. GR: It's an incredible scoop you would put it out JR? JR: I'm a bit dubious about this. GR: If your experts are satisfied and they are, that it's genuine? JR: I'm still a bit dubious about it. I think with modern enhancement of pictures I'm just not convinced, I'd need to talk about it a lot. GR: You talk about it a lot and everyone confirms that it is actually Bin Laden and he's talking a couple of weeks ago. JR: There's something inherent in my brain that says that I'm not entirely convinced and I'm not going to put it out yet because I'm not entirely convinced about the veracity of that picture. GR: But this is incredible this is the news that everyone wants to know, whether he is alive or not, is this capable of being withheld Nik Gowing? NG: I agree with John, looking at that still image and looking at that front page of the Herald Tribune whether it could have been enhanced. GR: Experts have confirmed it Arabists have done the translation and confirmed it's Bin Laden's voice. He's talking, he denounces America as the great Satan, British as the small Satan, NATO as a coven of Satans, he threatens that there will be an event more terrifying than the Twin Towers, stronger than a thousand suns and he praises Allah after he sends his wishes to his comrades in Iraq. This is absolutely genuine. Edith Chapin, would you hesitate to put it out? EC: Absolutely, criticism has already been made of sending coded messages... GR: So before you've even been called by the CIA you're worried about coded messages? EC: You can't be more careful. What if we're putting the lives of more people in jeopardy? We don't know that it's legitimate; we don't know it's been doctored; we have experts who say that. GR: But this is incredibly important news, I thought you were in the news business? Bin Laden is alive and he's threatening isn't that everyone in the world has a right to know and you so called news people are so terrified and so abdicated your responsibility to investigative journalism to the CIA and the authorities, you're not even putting it out. EC: We don't need to put it out this minute. GR: Why not? EC: Because we have learned a few things, certainly since 9/11 and we've all been burned a couple of times perhaps and all those things that were absolutely genuine haven't always been absolutely genuine. I think we would take a long time to make absolutely sure that we were comfortable and that is something again that has been said several times this morning. We have learned a few things haven't we? GR: What you've learned I suppose from 9/11 is that it was a massive intelligence failure? EC: It doesn't matter it means that we approach it in a more thoughtful, more cautious way. GR: Wasn't it also a media failure because after all the western media have more money than western intelligence. On the whole no media reported Al Qaeda as a threat. The media seems, certainly TV seems to have largely abandoned investigative journalism in relation to terrorism. EC: Al Qaeda was reported prior to 9/11, was it reported enough, probably not? Did it take those extraordinary events to awaken the world to the possibilities of a group of that sort, I don't know? But we would try to be responsible and again we've learned to step a little carefully and the enhancement issue is huge for all of us because it's so, every week it's getting better and the ability to superimpose voice and picture and whatever else by computer is amazing and I think we would go slowly. Wanting all the time to get it on the air because that's what we live for. GR: Are you surprised Rolf Porseryd as a reporter that your executives are not putting out this scoop of Bin Laden being alive and making a threat that may relate to his nuclear capacity? RP: Yes, if all the experts say this is genuine then of course we should broadcast it. GR: Are you surprise Dmitry Mednikov that the western media is so frightened and nervous of terrorism that this scoop, they're not telling the world that Bin Laden is alive and making these threats? DM: To be honest all of us sitting here should understand that we're the main force in developing terrorism because the main purpose of people planting bombs is to be shown so that they can frighten other people. Possibly I'm mistaken so correct me but I am only the representative of a state media so for us the main principle is to check absolutely all the circumstances of getting this tape and to understand that this is true. And only then can we show it because otherwise we just provoke other people to action. GR: If the Russian government thought that it was a good thing that the Russian people was alive then you'd put it out? DM: If the Russian government has evidence that this picture is true of course we'll put it out. If the government doesn't have then it would never ask us to show it GR: But you'll do what the government asks you to do? DM: If we know it's true, if we don't know it's true then I think we would argue this. GR: Mike Granatt, the security services were very concerned that the media has this tape, they ask whether you could intercede and stop them showing it in case it has a coded message it looks like your not going to have much trouble. It seems like you're going to have an extremely responsible media. MG: I think the situation could change very quickly and if we felt that this was going to cause a problem then I think our duty would be to explain to the media what we thought the problem might be. GR: Well explain it to Nik Gowing because he might be a little more keen once he's confirmed to put out at least the still that we saw from that tape. MG: Nik you've got the tape, you've got the sound and the decision to broadcast it is yours but we think you should know that one of the things that we fear is that the contents of that tape may be for example a coded warning and while the existence of the tape is bound to be known the actual contents might be dangerous to public safety because of what it might trigger and I've been asked to approach you and to give you that particular information and to ask you to consider the wisdom of broadcasting the tape itself. NG: I think on our side we'd still be concerned of the authenticity of the things we've already heard. GR: Forget the authenticity, the authenticity is confirmed. NG: We're talking in real time of course at the moment and you cannot verify something like this in real time. GR: You can with this. MG: I hear what you say and I'm reassured that you don't seem to be broadcasting at this juncture; if you do decide to broadcast it can you give us some warning. NG: I don't speak for my editors but I'm sure that will be in close contact with you on this issue. GR: Mike Grannatt, have a word with Victor Carrera, he might be a little more concerned to tell the public undoubtedly what it would be interested in knowing. MG: Victor have you spoken to Nik Gowing? I've explained to Nik that our fear that if this tape is authentic and we don't know yet but it could possibly be authentic and we would have to be aware of that possibility. The contents of that tape may contain messages that could trigger action which could endanger public safety. So we've asked our own domestic broadcasters if they will be very careful about broadcasting the content of that tape although I realise that the existence of it cannot possibly be hidden, and I would ask you to consider that point very carefully. And I'm quite sure that your own government might be making the same approach to you. VC: As we are a small station we are not going to take the responsibility of broadcasting that until we have it confirmed. GR: Would you broadcast the still? Let's have a look at that still again can we and see whether your nervousness bout broadcasting this is justified? Are you going with the still John Ryley, the Evening Standard has reproduced word for word what Bin Laden said on the tape. JR: There is a sort of fudge solution to this which is to report using Nik or whatever that the tape exists but not actually to play it on air. GR: Does it change it for you that at this moment Al Jazeera is going live with the tape? JR: Not at the moment in my mind no. GR: Does it change it for you Suzette? SK: No. GR: Even though people around the world can pick up Al Jazeera on their cable? SK: We're still trying to be responsible even though that tape's out there. GR: It's gone out on Al Jazeera Edith Chapin; does it go out on CNN? EC: Absolutely not we have to stand on our own news judgment not someone else's. GR: But you were prepared to stand on Reuters judgment. EC: We didn't commit to running Reuters we discussed it. GR: Mike Granatt, does it change the advice you give to the media that it's been aired on Al Jazeera where if there is any coded message to be had, those interested or knowing the codes would most certainly be watching. MG: Al Jazeera certainly has some reach but it hasn't got complete reach. GR: It's on most cable channels; it's on cable in Europe. MG: Well my advice to the people I've talked to would still be the same but I'd realise and if they approach me and press me that the game is essentially up. GR: The game is essentially up so even though the security services think that the game is up, Suzette are you being so ultra-responsible that you're not going to put it out? SK: Again still trying to confirm it ourselves, we're based in London and we're certainly working with NYC and DC. If it's a tape of Bin Laden then it goes all the way to the top in DC and we'll be trying to be responsible, perhaps talking about a tape that's out but possibly not airing it yet. GR: The response of bring responsible isn't the way that Watergate was broken or the way that much successful investigative journalism has operated but being responsible in this area is that because you're worried about being criticised. SK: No. Being responsible means having respect for public safety for the, in this case, world population. GR: Your judgment of world safety may be more suppressive even than Mike Grannatt's judgment and he speaks for the security services. SK: Again I'd like to believe that we have learned some things like not just necessarily just leaping after stories that you see or items that come up as a flash on agencies I hope we've learned that sometimes that's wrong, we've got to get our own information. GR: The American media John Ryley seem to be quote a lot more responsible or nervous than perhaps the Spanish or English media on this subject. JR: I disagree with that, at the moment we're not running that video, I'm not convinced of its veracity. GR: MG said the game was up, have you run it Victor Carrera. VC: Yes we've run it. GR: So it's out in Spain, so are you running it? JR: Not at the moment no. I'm sure we'll be talking to a lot of these experts that you cite. GR: There's a call from a suite at the Savoy hotel, an Australian accent and you know it very well, he says “why aren't you bastards running this tape of Bin Laden? I'm watching it on Spanish, Austrian and Slovenian TV, your ratings are so fucking low why don't you put it out?” Why aren't you? JR: Because I don't know that it's true I don't know who's holding up the picture I don't know where it's coming from. Well MG it's going to get out eventually, if not today then tomorrow. VC you've got a very distinguished Arabist who's rather an expert on Bin Laden, he's written a book about him. Dr Henry Strangelove, he's in the studio would you have him on to comment? He's got an interesting take on this tape he thinks that there's a change in Bin Laden's targets now he thinks that he's out for NATO and he thinks that he may well from the language have nuclear weapons. Is that an interesting perspective to share with your viewers? VC: Of course it is, we've never such an issue in our studios. GR: It would be very interesting, I suppose you could read it in El Tempo tomorrow but it could be very interesting to have Dr Strangelove, he's very personable, everyone in Madrid is feeling a lot of relief at the moment. VC: I probably would interview him and record it and then try to assess his comments. GR: It's great TV it takes the debate on. Are you going to interview him JR? He's very distinguished writes regularly for the Guardian. NG BBC News 24 have got him on, they'll get anyone on. NG: So what's the question? GR: Are you happy to interview him? NG: I think you can talk about the existence of a tape; you don't have to show it, very much in line with what John is saying. You can talk about the fact there is a tape and a still and you can talk about the journalistic judgment you are making about why you are not actually showing it. GR: Would you have Dr Strangelove explaining that this tape in his view and he's an expert on Bin Laden, indicates in his view that Bin Laden has nuclear weapons? NG: We don't want to be in a position where we are accused by our audience of deceiving them by putting out information that has come from a tape which is still in our minds been doctored. GR: But this isn't coming from the tape it's coming from Dr Strangelove who's seen the tape even though you're not showing it to your audience. NG: but we know that he had the potential for a nuclear capability from what was discovered in the labs in Jalalabad so that is not new. By this stage we would have a transcript probably of what this tape allegedly said we would behind the scenes be balancing this with the information that's come through in the last year. GR: If he does have a nuclear capability Andrew Kain, you run training courses for journalists is there anything you can train them to withstand? AK: They can look at the property values in the Highlands of Scotland! The difficulty would be what's his nuclear capability? Is it a dirty bomb which maybe we can deal with or is it something more serious? GR: Your safety courses for journalists are what 3 days/5 days? AK: 5 days. GR: And what do you teach them to do, to dodge bullets, and four wheel driving and how to dress? AK: All those things everything to give them more control over their own environment when they're operating in a hostile environment. GR: And how much do you charge for these courses? As much as they'll pay I guess? AK: Being a Scot I wouldn't disagree with that! GR: And do you teach them how to deal with dirty bombs? AK: We have an element on there that has grown up over the last 12/18 months and we work very closely with Dave Butler. GR: So if we go on your course we get Dave Butler for free? AK: You get elements of DB for free. GR: Do you charge as well. DB: Absolutely! GR: I see so we get two for the price of two. DB: I think what Andrew is trying to say is that his courses deal with one kind of hostile environment and our courses deal specifically with the type of hostile environment that we're talking about this morning. GR: He deals with dodging bullets, you deal with dodging radioactivity? DB: Amongst others as well as the biological and the chemical hazards as well. GR: Tony Loughran what do they teach that you can't? TL: We've employed DB to chemical/biological/radiation course since 1996. We've done the course because we perceived a threat from these types of weapons for some time. We've also been involved in hostile environment training and we have our own specialist training provider. GR: Wouldn't it be cheaper to do it in-house? TL: We do elements of personal security training in-house because we're fortunate to have a specialist team. But when it comes to chemical/bio/radiation there's so many aspects to cover we cannot cover them efficiently and DB's the lead on this in the UK. GR: So what does Andrew Kain offer that you can't? TL: AK is a hostile environment training supplier and there are many of them in the industry and what we do is we have our own particular tendering panel that chooses providers over the period of a couple of years but it's specifically hostile environment training that Andy and his company provide. GR: Vaughan Smith, you lost Roddy Scott recently in Chechnya and your founder Rory Peck was killed in Moscow, would having been on these training courses have saved their lives? VS: No, but I am absolutely convinced that they have saved lives, I think that they are absolutely essential and Roddy went on one: GR: So essential not necessarily because it will save lives but because it will make you more alert, more knowledgeable? VS: What they do is they equip you and they really do to assess situations and look after yourself. As a journalist you have to make a risk assessment of what you're doing and it has to somehow be worth it. These courses help you make that intelligently. GR: And so you would for example if you'd done DB's course, you'd know what a dosemeter is and you'd know to take it to the next bombing. VS: I haven't done his course. GR: I'm just getting some news in ladies and gentlemen, there's some news breaking now. There's been an incident in Brussels, I think we have a local reporter Kris Borgraeve. Good morning Kris whereabouts are you, the building behind you looks familiar. Kris Borgraeve (KB): I'm at the headquarters of NATO and it appears that there has been a serious incident here. GR: What sort of serious incident? Kris Borgraeve: It appears to be an explosion, we were here reporting on some trivial fact, the story of a cat entering this compound on a daily basis... GR: A cat got into NATO?! KB: Yes a cat apparently attracted by the leftovers in the lunchboxes of the NATO staff. GR: This is an important news story in Brussels? KB: No something of a local urban legend but while we reporting on that we heard this incredible explosion here right behind us. A huge bang it sounded like a bomb going off and then later the sirens started and we could hear ambulances maybe you can still hear them now and that all happened 1km from here, ambulances are still rushing to scene and we still don't know exactly what is going on but it definitely sounded like a bomb and all our local VTM reporters are contacting local police, federal police even the military and NATO authorities... GR: Do they know what sort of bomb it was? It didn't sound like a dirty bomb? Although a dirty bomb has no particular sound. KB: It was definitely a huge bang, it could be a car bomb we can't be specific because we are about a kilometre away so we only saw bit of smoke so we can't guess whether it's a car bomb yet or not. GR: You stay there, don't worry about radiation and we'll come back to you after the break. It's 9.10 GMT and all is not well we have a dirty bomb warning from the CIA that Al Qaeda is going to plant, we have Osama Bin Laden alive and threatening an attack that is going to be more horrific than the World Trade Center. We have a brown Ford motor car driven by Hashim Muhammed which left Trieste 3 days ago heading west and now this explosion at NATO HQ in Brussels. Join us after the break. GR: Welcome back ladies and gentlemen, it's 9.40 GMT and all is not well we've had a dirty bomb warning from the CIA , we've Osama Bin Laden alive and threatening a terrifying attack, we've had a brown Ford car crossing to western Europe and an explosion at NATO HQ, we're crossing live to Kris Borgraeve, are you there Kris? Have you managed to find anything out in the last half hour about the explosion? KB: Yes we have discovered that NATO has suffered an attack, there has been a car bomb at the other side of NATO and it was a very serious explosion, police have cleared the whole area and they have forced us to move, we couldn't stay at the main entrance. We are now at the military compound of the Belgian army some 500 metres further on from NATO HQ. We were forced to move there with the crew and the satellite van because it was too dangerous to stay there. Now, we saw a lot of military coming in there were troops entering NATO HQ and it was exceptional I had never seen except on a military parade but now they were driving really fast and it was quite impressive to see and indicates that there is something very serious going on. GR: You have the Belgian army on the streets is that legal? Is there any basis for putting the army out under Belgian law? KB: Well it's certainly not the usual troops we see when there is an ordinary bomb alert but this looks very serious, it indicates that there might be a dirty bomb and that the explosion might have been that of a dirty bomb. GR: It indicates that there is a national emergency in Belgium does it? KB: It must be, we've contacted local police and federal police because we wanted to inform you about the danger to the public but they were not able to give us any information and even the state security couldn't tell us more and that tells us that it's very serious. There appears to be something wrong with the line and I can't hear you but we had received some warnings in the past weeks that there could be a dirty bomb attack, there were several reports that there could have been an attack of Al Qaeda on one of the European cities and all these warnings and the fact that this huge area has been cleared makes us very worried about this, so it could be a dirty bomb. GR: Let's move now to the studios of the world, they report in Eugen Freund that there may be Uranium in that bomb we know that low grade Uranium was found in Kandahar, is that something that you would want to comment upon in your news programme? EF: Well yes I would except that I am still grappling with the Bin Laden tape that came out recently and we haven't put it out despite what you said. Because there are actually three things on this tape that made me very suspicious, one was that Bin Laden is reading the entertainment page of the Herald Tribune while he's holding it up and secondly his beard looks more like the beard from 1995. GR: This is a good story isn't it if an actor has been playing Bin Laden. EF: But what all these Arab linguists seem to have overlooked is that he's holding up the Paris edition and not the Hong Kong edition. GR: It may be that he's in Paris or in Brussels. Have you put it out Richard Tait? Richard Tait (RT): Yes we have. GR: You have unlike all these other broadcasters. Why have you put it out and the others haven't. RT: While I share all the concerns about the authenticity of the tape and the implications of putting it out I think with proper health warnings and proper context it's an important piece of information and we're in the disclosure business not in the concealment business. And it seems to me that MG might believe there's a secret message in it he can't prove that to me, there's no evidence that these tapes contain secret messages and in any event in the world of the world wide web and Al Jazeera 24 hour news once it's transmitted if there is a message it's out. I have run it I've put various health warnings on it and can't verify completely that it's genuine and you assure me that it is but I have put some kind of provenance on it and put what is said in a context and I think that the idea that these very distinguished colleagues would have sat on it all morning is not totally credible. GR: How much have you paid, Nigel Baker for it. NB: First of all I would never disclose that obviously publicly and secondly we didn't because we persuaded them that if it was something in the public domain and it was a strong story then it was something that should be disseminated in such a way that reached all the world's media so reluctantly they agreed to give it to us. GR: You get a call from somebody at the News of the World checking his story that somebody called Sandy at your office paid £50,000 to the north London mosque for the tape, would you like to comment Mr Baker? NB: That's totally incorrect. GR: Thank you. MG which do you think is more likely Richard Tait's approach or that of the broadcasters we heard this morning? MG: With a bare 20 years experience, Richard's. GR: So the Bin laden tape has gone out, Dmitry Mednikov you're in Brussels you have another girlfriend at the NATO HQ a senior assistant there. Do you think of giving her a call to see what's happening? DM: Yes of course. GR: You call on her mobile she says “Dmitry it's incredible there are men in masks and moon-suits running round with Geiger counters we're all being evacuated.” Would you put that story out? DM: Actually I'm going to ask her if I can put it on air, if she agrees then of course. GR: You'd put her on live, cut out the introductory comments and the wonder where you were last nights but you put the rest of it out. DM: Yes GR: So we have that information. Kris Borgraeve can you hear me now? KB: Yes I can hear you. GR: How far do you think you are from the site? KB: We're at a Belgian military base 1 or 2 km from NATO HQ so from this place we can only see that this huge area has been cleared so it's very difficult for us to get information about what is going on inside the very large NATO complex, some 3000 people work there so it's a very big site and hard for us to get information from inside. GR: What happened to the cat, viewers from around the world want to know is the cat safe? KB: I think this story has been completely abandoned in light of these events... GR: You've lost the cat! KB: We've lost the cat and we're happy about it to be honest to you. GR: Maybe it will glow in the dark maybe it's radioactive. You will of course get great plaudits from your boss so you'd better get back to the studio now. KB: I hope he can send us some protective suits. GR: He may not know that we'll talk to him in a minute, thank you very much Kris. This is a very significant event MG and a very serious event, you've been called in by NATO to advise them on what they should be telling the press. They don't know very much because the bomb only went off half an hour ago what they do know is that there is increased radioactivity in the area. So clearly it was a dirty bomb, how dirty cannot be established until they get a mobile spectrometer on the scene and analyze the results. They are getting some Alpha rays, what does that mean? MG: An Alpha emitter it could be plutonium but I would turn to a scientist and ask him. GR: You will have Tom McKenna from the International Atomic Energy Agency advising you, there are Gamma rays as well. What are you saying to the media everybody wants a statement? MG: You asked me what advice I'd give NATO and there are two things that spring to mind. The first is that can't possibly hide what's happened and if they tried to their credibility would suffer possibly for ever and they need to be credible at this point. And the second thing is that if you're going to announce this information then you have to tell the public of whom there are rather a large number around that area what they should do. So two things should happen, one is a rather quick engagement with the media saying this is what we know and importantly this is what we don't know and secondly that people are given very good information about what to do. In these circumstances I would turn to my scientific colleagues... GR: Well let's take those stage by stage. First of all Richard Tait you're editing at ITN you have now the admission of heightened radioactivity in the area, Andrew Kain is your expert, how are you going to announce this on the 11 o/c news RT: I'm going to give people as much confirmed information as I can but I'm going to try and get one of the many experts on this platform to put it in a proper balanced context. GR: You're going to try and get an expert on air. RT: I will get an expert on air because there is clearly a debate as to how dangerous these bombs are. GR: Andrew Kain how should they be writing their headlines for the news that goes out in 5 minutes, they know there has been a dirty bomb in Brussels is that the story, how should they introduce it to the world? AK: I think that's part of it but preceding that there should be a bit of reassurance to avoid a general panic because I think a lot of the public's perception of a dirty bomb would conjure up images of Hiroshima. So I think if it was just thrown on air it would cause a panic but if it was preceded by an expert, TMcK or someone putting it into context. GR: You can't precede it you've got to write headlines what is your headline for the 11 o/c news “Dirty Bomb in Brussels”?, John Ryley? JR: Yes, dirty bomb at NATO HQ in Brussels. GR: Is that yours CNN? EC: Probably pretty close. GR: Suzette, you're not going to say there has been an incident at NATO HQ, there may be radiological effects? SK: No GR: That's not a headline AK it's going to be “Dirty Bomb at NATO HQ in Brussels” AK: I think immediately thereafter you're going to have to reassure the general public with appropriate advice for those in the immediate affected area. GR: You could play the dirty bomb tape again John Ryley? JR: But our friend Tom said it was fairly inaccurate so we probably wouldn't. I think we'd try and get Tom on the telephone. GR; So you'd get TMcK on the telephone to tell people not to panic. JR: I think we'd also try and get our friend from Brussels back on the telephone because he'd be eye-witness. GR: Well you've had him and he doesn't know more than he's told you. And you've got the NATO girlfriend of Dmitry's, you've got her story about the gas masks. JR: We'd try and get the NATO spokesman on the phone Mark Laity or whoever runs it now. We'd be bashing the telephones to get eyewitnesses or experts. GR: What about your own people? Who are you sending? JR: We have a correspondent in Brussels called Colin Brazier and he happens to be in Brussels. GR: Who are you sending Richard Tait? RT: Hewitt Bremner who's based in Brussels GR: You want your frontline news presenter, her name now is Amanda Autocue, she refuses to wear any protective clothing, she's got her colour co-ordinated flak jacket that she wants to wear. RT: She doesn't work for ITN, or she would do what she's told. GR: Come on she says Moschino haven't made a moon-suit yet so I'm not going in in one of those. RT: I don't recognise this conversation. GR: Suzette who are you sending in? SK: We're sending in a correspondent from London; Keith Miller happens to be in the office ready to go we're looking at the flights, we don't know whether he'll be able to go so we're looking at charters, can he still fly in to Brussels? Is there an airspace closure? GR: Arnd Henze from Cologne, are you sending anyone or are you going to rely on the freelancers in Brussels? AH: We have seven correspondents based in Brussels so we would be very much concerned with their safety. GR: This is a very different story to their reports on the European Parliament isn't it? AH: Yes but we'd still have the experts available from the first incident in Madrid so we could rely on them. GR: Have they gone through any training on radioactive material and what to do in a radioactive zone? AH: Not special radioactivity training, so we wouldn't send anyone near the site of the event. GR: Thank you, let's see who you're sending Edith Chapin. Lots of Brussels has been closed off and we've got a map showing what's closed in Brussels. The airport is closed, TMcK, do you think that's a little drastic at this stage? TMcK: I don't know the scale GR: NO neither do we. The European Commission however has also been closed down, that's a relief to many but it's clearly a major disaster are so EC your reporter and camera crew in Brussels haven't undergone radioactivity training. There is a very capable freelancer who everyone uses for difficult jobs in Brussels called Mark Robberechts, would you think it better to use him and his crew rather than send you own people into a radioactive area? EC: I don't think you can ask a freelancer to perform a risk that you're not prepared to deal with yourself. GR: Well you can EC: Well you shouldn't GR: Would you use a freelancer for this VC a freelancer who has undergone training. VC: I don't think so we have a correspondent there and he would be the one. GR: And you'd order him in? VC: Yes. GR: Vaughan Smith it looks like you're going in again, it's a radioactive area it could be uranium is this very sensible David Butler? DB: Probably not until you have dissevered where, the authorities would have put a Hazard Zone around it anyway and that would always be larger than is necessary but as I understand it it's a standard thing to do. Perhaps MG could throw more light on that, I know in the UK we have standard sizes. GR: But these executives are thinking of sending there people right in to get pictures of the car bomb Richard Tait? RT: While I might be more aggressive than some of my colleagues about showing video I'd be more cautious about sending someone in to a radioactive area until one knew what the level of radioactivity was, what the source was and what the risk to that person's health. GR: And there's your insurance to think about and the possibility of legal action subsequently from their family. RT: No no there's the responsibility of you as a manager for the people that work for you and at this stage what matters is the event, to get the pictures would obviously be a bonus but the pictures aren't worth endangering the health of your staff and until we know a bit more about the circumstances of the bomb I'd be extremely cautious about sending a real or fictitious reporter and I wouldn't ask a freelancer to do it either. GR: Well Mark Robberechts who's there, these pictures if he gets them would be extremely valuable wouldn't they? RT: Well that's the ethical dilemma we all have with freelances but I would not send a freelancer to go and do something for me that I wouldn't ask somebody working in my own news organisation. GR: But you're not going to ask someone working for your news org to get a picture of the car that's blown up? RT: If it was safe to do so then I would and from what you've told me so far I don't know whether it is safe and I tell you what I think would happen I'd probably be on the phone to my colleagues over there and say look this is an incredibly dangerous situation we don't know what we're dealing with... GR: Get on the phone to John Ryley? RT: John is there a way we can pool coverage today because otherwise I think people are going to take risks to get pictures that are not worth risking your life and long term health for? JR: I think RT makes an important point, one can report the story as it's breaking without the essential picture, you get people on the telephone, there are websites with information, there's Tom to talk to, we would discuss it and probably send a reporter... GR: Rolf Porseryd, ask MG he's the spokesman, what question do you have for him? RP: Is it safe or what do you know about going into this very dangerous area, can I go without any experience of this kind of event. MG: I'm assuming at this point that we've given public information that says the best thing you can do is stay inside and listen to the radio. And my advice would be to anybody including you staff, if they want to stay clear of any potential danger that you do not send people in there. If you do send people in there then be aware of the fact that you may be encouraging people watching what your crews are doing to put themselves into danger. GR: How does that advice come down for you Suzette? SK: I think we have a responsibility to care about the individuals that work for us, as I said earlier you want to be competitive but you've got to be caring about those people and following the guidance I think there's no honour in having someone die covering a story for us. Sometimes I think that journalism is inherently dangerous even if people are trained it's still dangerous I think we have the responsibility to give them the minimum training and then in a case like this I'd say stand back and let's see what happens. GR: Suppose a reporter calls you and says look Suzette it's my responsibility, I'm going in I don't believe that the radiation threat is as serious as they make out, I've listened to TMcK, I've got the David Butler course I'm going in. SK: It's a hard one we've got some people like that but I would say that if I knew the dangers were possibly extremely high. GR: Well you've heard from MG you know his advice SK: ...I would instruct that person to just stop and wait and let me make that decision. GR: Edith Chapin? EC: I would say there's lots of facts that can be gathered on the phone. I would aSK: Mike, are they closing the filters at NATO? That would be an indication to me of more severity. Just what, now that enough time has gone by, what were the readings on those meters? What other kinds of factual information can you share with us so that we can report the story? What is going on? What is happening to the people inside? Is there panic inside NATO? GR: There's a lot of questions there MG. MG: I think the most important one was the one about the filters and I think if we'd encouraged people to stay inside we would have no hesitation in saying that we've ensured the air is not being pulled into the building from outside as we have advised everybody else. GR: It's great advice - stay inside and watch the TV for information. Is what they're getting this morning information? MG: I would encourage my colleagues to give as much information as possible including about the uncertainties. We don't know yet what has happened precisely. GR: We know that there's increased radioactivity and you know Alpha and Gamma rays have been detected.. MG: Then I think our duty would be to say that we've detected increased radioactivity and our best advice is to stay away from it and the best way to do that is not to venture outside stay inside and listen to the broadcasts. GR: Stay inside and watch TV TMcK, are they in any danger watching TV? TMcK: That's exactly what we would tell them to do but the reason there watching TV is hopefully local officials are prepared to promptly give advice on what you're supposed to do. It's interesting this whole topic because we're revising all our guidance based on the events of the last few years and we view the media as the principal source of information. We think that local officials should be prepared to treat the media as emergency workers. They should be given dosemetry, escorted to the source but protected as emergency workers. GR: The local officials in Belgium are in a state of panic like everybody else and they haven't got your guideline yet they're still being drafted so I suppose you're putting out RT on ITN Dirty Bomb Explosion in Paris Gamma Rays, Alpha rays, danger to inhalation, cancer. RT: Yes that's what I'm saying but at the same time I'm also trying to get all the other main broadcasters based in London together to say why don't we talk to Tom and Mike and to get one cameraman with proper equipment and an escort to go to the epicenter of the problem to get the pictures. And what I'm going to say to Mike is that there are brave freelancers or enterprising reporters who'll say to hell with it I'll take the risk. I don't want that to happen so if you don't want that to0 happen I would say Mike you've got two choices you can have people going over your checkpoints running round the back getting themselves into serious radiological hazards can you organise a pool camera for all the major world broadcasters, we'll make it available to everybody. GR: but who's going to be the person who goes in? RT: But no-one is going in unless it's safe in terms of the equipment GR: Except possibly a courageous freelancer who's done DB's course. The epicenter for London TV executives in another hour's time will be the Savoy Hotel. DB you are on the TV as a studio guest, it's dangerous isn't it? DB: Yes there's dangers there. The first thing I would tell them is not to send a woman. GR: Why? DB: It's a fact of nature, women's' bodies are more susceptible to radiation. GR: Why are women's' bodies more susceptible to radiation TMcK? TMcK: Only if they're pregnant and we encourage special periods for pregnancy, that is true though. GR: So you can send non-pregnant women in. DB: I would tend to take the view that you shouldn't send a woman into this hazard because there are some other parts of their body that, Tom's alluded to but mainly because of those reproductive organs. GR: We've seen that a large part of Brussels that has been closed off, there's a 5km wind gusting south does that pose a problem? DB: Yeah it was interesting to see the reporter there who'd been moved a couple of km's from the base and I wonder whether the people who sent him told him to look to see what way the wind was blowing, you could see the trees blowing quite nicely there. GR: There's quite a strong wind it's blowing south towards France. DB: He should try to be as a natural precaution on the upwind side… GR: What does the wind do to the radioactivity? DB: Well again some of the particles will have been atomised and they'll be carried on the wind and this will put down a radiation footprint out to a distance dependent on the wind and weather conditions. GR: So you get a radioactive dust cloud… DB: You wouldn't necessarily see it but it is there… GR; So you get an invisible dust cloud or it might look like any other cloud? DB: It could do yes. GR: We've actually got someone in Paris, Joel-Francois Dumont, ah you're at the Eiffel Tower I see, are you concerned that we've had experts here say that there could be a radioactive dust cloud, the trajectory is south over Reims the Champagne country, I don't know what that will do to the crop it might be a bit Mururoa Atoll, remember when the French id those tests in the Pacific it now seems that you might have something of the same cloud in your Champagne country, which New Zealanders and Australians might think of as poetic justice. But nevertheless, if that is a radioactive cloud are you equipped in France to deal with it? Joel-Francois Dumont: Are you speaking of the journalists or the French government? GR: I'm thinking of the government does it have the contingency plan in place? JFD: In France since 1968 we've had such units to fight against this type of accident or terrorist attacks and since then many things have been improved, as you know we are a nuclear power and we have some experience regarding toxic warfare and so on. GR: And you are ready for the radioactive cloud? JFD: If you look at the budget it is something different, I believe that civil defence in France has never been important compared to military defence but nevertheless there are means and maybe the real problem is to connect the means together. That's the same problem for the media also is to be able to connect and of course if something happens in Belgium you can imagine that in France we are directly concerned. So with the wind that's been mentioned if something happens at NATO HQ, it's located about 100km from the French border. So when something like this happens I can imagine that the northern zone of France headed by a prefect would put first the A Plan which organises help. Second we could imagine that when we know more about the danger then we have the so called BioTox Plan that was revealed last year only, it remained secret until last year and then we put the specialists, we have 50,000 specialists….. GR: It sounds as if you are very ready and I see a lot of tourists walking nonchalantly about they obviously haven't been watching TV this morning. Perhaps you could do a vox-pop, you could interview them and say do they know that a radioactive cloud is coming down from Belgium and get some reaction from people in the street? We'll come back to you JFD. GR: Meanwhile no-one from the news media here is sending anyone into the radioactive epicenter to get pictures of the car bomb, the car that exploded with the bomb except Mark Robberechts, you are the most courageous and most proficient freelancer in Brussels and you've done DB's course, you're equipped with the dose-meter and you are making you're way towards the epicenter to the cemetery beside the NATO HQ where the car exploded. Your dose-meter hasn't registered yet, you're looking for the car and it seems to be ok, suddenly the alarm goes off, does that worry you? MR: I would pull back. GR: You would stop and think, it's set at 20 micro-severs; so DB he's already got 20 micro-severs in his courageous body at this point and he hasn't quite got to the cemetery, is that going to kill him? DB: No, it's not going to kill him.. GR: How many micro-severs do we normally get? DB: In an average year about 750 I would think. GR: So how many a day? Two, so he's only getting about 10 times as much radiation today as he would normally. How many micro-severs in a sever? DB: There's a thousand micro-severs in a mili-sever and there's a thousand mili-severts in a severt. GR: So a severt is a million micro-severts? How many severts does it take to kill us? DB: Four. GR: Four! We've got a long time to go yet, 4 million micro-severts to kill him and he's only got 20, that sounds a pretty acceptable risk doesn't it Andrew Kain? AK: No I would revert again to Dave Butler and see what the long-term effects of that size of dose. GR: OK Gaby Rosenberg, you've heard DB's advice, assuming that he's one of you freelance teams and you're operating in Brussels rather that Jerusalem, 20 micro-severts only ten times as much radiation as one would get normally. Gaby R: I would try to use another source of coverage, I'm rather surprised that none of us thought of giving a call to a state broadcaster and asking his assistance in coordinating it with a state office, whether this is the police, military or any other state or government institution that will be well equipped with the space things and the necessary equipment to go there and not to be worried about 21 or 24 units but to be well equipped, trained to be able to go closer to the scene in order to provide us with accurate visual information. This is supplementary to the other information which is not less important to those who are not listening to the radio as previously indicated but watching TV. GR: Right while you're absorbing this information Marc Robberechts as well as the radiation in the atmosphere let's go back to the studio of Kris Borgraeve in Belgium where his boss Klaus Van Isacker is waiting to welcome him back, Kris is about to come back his local news story about the cat on the NATO wire has gone around the world, your transmission has been bought by every TV station in the world, he's had this amazing scoop are you going to congratulate him when he comes back? Klaus Van Isacker (KVI): I don't think so because we wouldn't have the time, I think we are here in Belgium in a very particular situation because we live here NATO is our backyard or we are NATO's backyard I think and my first worry would be to inform people who live here, Belgians, Flemish people what the situation is, so what I would do is do my utmost to stay on the air for hours and hours if need be to give them that information. GR: Kris has come back to the studio; you'll presumably shake his hand and congratulate him? KVI: Yes, of course. GR: Maybe embrace him? KVI: Erm yes. GR: What will that do to KVI, Dave Butler? DB: One would assume that the dose-meter there would only be for Gamma and Beta radiation.. GR: You're going to get a lot of Gamma and Beta radiation KVI DB: No GR: But having done that a lot of the executives here will be worried about sending their own operatives in, their cameramen their journalists and Marc Robberechts who's on the spot is worried and may pull out, maybe since Kris is contaminated anyway you could send him back? KVI: No I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't take any risks what I would do is when I called Kris to come back I would ask him to leave his hardware over there, his camera and SMG truck with a view on NATO so that we would always have pictures of the evacuation operation that's going on. What we have also is contacts within NATO, within the EC, with the Prime Minister who could act for us as witnesses to describe what's happening within the compound at NATO and we also have those contacts with official spokespeople. GR: OK so you tell him to leave the camera there, get the hell out of there but leave his camera just in case some terrorist passes it and waves on the way to escape. But let's ask Tom McKenna, how would you advise Klaus Van Isacker to deal with Kris assuming that Kris is contaminated? TMcK: Radiation has got two problems, one its very easily spread and it's very easily measured but our experience is that contamination especially something like this probably wouldn't be at a dangerous level but it would probably be at a level where they'd have to bury the furniture and all the clothes because of the fear and the fact that it would be at levels higher than normal. GR: So Kris should be told to take his clothes off and bury them? TMcK: What Kris should be told is to go to the authorities where they're doing proper monitoring and in accordance with procedures and then do what they tell you to do. GR: But everyone who has been on the streets will want to know how to be decontaminated this is one of the messages that the media may well get to today. How do you decontaminate? TMcK: Depends on the levels, if you've got very high levels then you decontaminate those people who could actually get sick from radiation, once you've taken care of that then you worry about those people who have those levels above normal who it's really a matter of public concern… GR: What should they do they're running home to watch the TV but what should TV be telling them to do? Take a shower? Have a shampoo? TMcK: To be honest with you that's probably exactly it, it depends on the nature of the threat and hopefully local officials have sorted this out but those are the kinds of things that make a difference. GR: Take your clothes off, bury them, shower, soap, shampoo? TMcK: You don't need to bury the clothes but these types of recommendation are depending on the nature of the hazard and that is not a trivial thing but if they're prepared in advance they can quickly assess it. GR: Well Marc Robberechts you've still got your clothes on, you've got those 20 micro-severts, not much bearing in mind you get two anyway a day, you've done the course, you've got your mask over your mouth and nose. It's only a very short distance to the cemetery where the car-bomb exploded? Marc Robberechts (MR): I think I would try and find out from the local authorities how far you can go, and depend on them. GR: Well, you've got a number of people who've hired you and are going to pay for the film that you've taken so far Victor Carrera you're one of them would you call Mark and tell him to come out or tell him on the basis of your conversation with Dave Butler, to go that extra corner and get the picture of the car? VC: No I wouldn't out pressure on him, probably what I would do in my particular case is I would as has been commented I would build a pool I don't think I would run it myself. GR: Richard Tait, would you pull him out or on the information you know would you call him and say Mark it's up to you but we'll pay a lot of money for that picture? RT: I wouldn't say that. GR: You'd say it's up to you. RT: Well I didn't send him but I know he's there and I think it's a huge dilemma. I didn't ask him to go and he is there and I can't take responsibility for his decision he must take responsibility for his decision. He's a brave and experienced operator, I would not have sent him, I do not want him to be there and I would say Mark I don't want you to take any risks on behalf of my organisation, you must make your own judgment on this one. GR: And if he says "if I take that risk and go round the corner will you buy my film?" RT: I would still be trying to persuade everybody to stop a dangerous competition for picture and to try and pool the pictures. I'm not going to get into a bidding competition with John Ryley about I'll give you more money if you give me the pictures exclusively, I don't want the money to be a factor in Marc's decision. GR: Suzette you've used Marc before, you know he's there would you give him a call and give him the benefit of your advice? SK: Marc, we're in touch with our experts but what are you feeling about going in? We think it's not good to go in we think it's too dangerous. MR: I would base my decision on the local authorities and if they say yes you can go and if they escort you I think you can make your pictures. GR: So you've taken that call and spoken to Suzette and taken your mouth mask off in order to speak, what has that done to him Dave Butler? DB: It depends on the hazards, I've seen this myself what it is when someone has got a mobile phone to their ear, what makes them walk around an kick the dirt, is there some connection between you right foot and your left ear that makes you walk around and kick up the dust. GR: But by taking off his mask? DB: Of course if there were any radiological particles in the air then he could breathe them in and by taking off his mask he's making the pathway for them to go in a lot simpler. GR: By taking the mask off he's inhaled what could be Plutonium Alpha rays. DB: Yes if there's Alpha particles then he could have ingested those. GR: The dose-meter is up to 50 Marc but don't worry you've got 4 million to go before you're going to die. There's a policeman who's at the laneway in a gasmask, it's a short laneway and around is the car, or the remains of the car, the picture that everyone wants. He says I'll let you go through if you pay me 1000Euros. Do you pay him? MR: That's not realistic I think. GR: It is, it's a Belgian policeman! MR: Probably yes. GR: While you're paying him Nigel Baker you got the last plane into Brussels, you've had a scoop offered to you, an American mourner who went looking at his father's grave, his father was diplomat in Brussels who died of boredom and he took some amateur video pictures of the aftermath of the explosion before he ran out, let's have a look at them they're not terribly good but they're all we've got. (Runs video footage) GR: There it is the brown Ford car after the explosion, that'll play round the world won't it? NB: Indeed it will, particularly if it's the only picture available GR: It is, Marc Robberechts who's coming back it's the only picture you've got he only wants 50,000 Euros, pretty cheap isn't it? NB: I think in this day and age people have an unrealistic expectation of what video is worth but…. GR: That's a pretty under-realistic expectation isn't it? NB: I think that any news organisation who was offered that on the day would be prepared to pay it. GR: Who are you going to sell it to Richard Tait, Victor Carrera, CNN, Sky who would you offer it to first? NB: We don't work in that way, we put out a service and people subscribe to it, so it's journalistic kudos the world gets it. GR: But who o you go to? NB: IT would be distributed to them all at the same time on satellite. I think one of the things I'd be curious about with those pictures is that I think those pictures would undoubtedly be the pictures that the world wanted, I think the curious thing a detail but it would be interesting to know what was on the meter? GR: Would that be any help Tony Loughran, is a Geiger counter going to tell you anything but radioactivity? Tony Loughran: I think at the end of the day it's important to have a measurement to see what's going on with the car, if the cars a car or if it's a bomb. GR: And Tom McKenna a Geiger counter's going to click, it's not going to tell you what sort of bomb it is? TMcK: We call them tickie-tickie meters because depending on what your setting you can make background sound like that, so the clicking doesn't mean anything. And we've heard mil../i/micro/nano and it's not that simple what you read on the outside isn't what you're getting on the inside, the whole inhalation thing, this is not a simple thing and you can't do it by looking at a video. GR: John Ryley do you buy that film? JR: We'd get it from APTN anyway on the source and the slate would be up, and we'd roll on it… GR: And you'd show it? JRC: We'd already be putting it on and have Tom or somebody talking us through it. GR: You'd show it CNN Edith? EC: I'm sure we'd show it GR: NBC? SK: I'm hoping it's not sensationalism to show pictures like that with that loud ticking without having some kind of responsible editorial content with it. GR: Do you want to dissuade them from showing that picture of the men in moon-suits with Geiger counters to underscore the dangers of a dirty bomb? JR: I'd want to discourage them from showing it without commentary that actually explained the facts in the way that Tom just did. I think we'd take the opportunity because the pictures would be shown to re-stress what we do and don't know about it and what indeed the real effects might be. GR: So the reality is a little knowledge is a dangerous thing but the problem here is that you at this point 3/4 of an hour after the explosion know very little. JR: Precisely and we have to say that and we have to tell people what we advise them to do in the circumstances. GR: This may be Uranium it may be very dangerous, it could be cobalt or strontium, it may be something not very dangerous. JR: I doubt e would go into that sort of detail because it doesn't carry very well in an interview but what we would want to do is get an expert like Tom or David to explain on camera what the uncertainties were and what would be the best thing to do because out there what people want to know is not what it was they want to know what the effect is on them. GR: Hello Cologne, there are pictures of men in moon-suits and Geiger counters going over a brown Ford car, are you going to buy those pictures and put them up? AH: I hope you will provide them for us. GR: Are you surprised that you can't get any journalists to go into that area? AH: I'm not surprised and again I would like to stress it's not the issue of the car-bomb it's the issue of the invisible dangers of contamination, and I think we would heavily rely on experts who could explain and answer the questions the audience would have, I think reporters in the epicenter wouldn't help us that much. GR: And would you be reporting the cloud that may be heading over France? AH: We would report it but we would discus it with experts in order not to sensationalise it. GR: Vaughan Smith, let me ask you, are you surprised there is no-one camera person at the epicenter of the explosion? VS: Yes I am surprised, I think by now a freelance would have got there if there was one available. GR: If you were in Brussels, pity you're in Madrid and there's no flights into Brussels airport would you have gone in? VS: If I had known that footage had come out I wouldn't of course. I view it on risk, reward and responsibility, there's no responsibility if pictures are coming out. I might be tempted to break the pool because obviously that excludes us. GR: There is no pool, the pool is past the perimeter, the pool hasn't even got a camera at NATO, the pool is outside the area where all the pictures are. VS: Part of the pool design is to prevent them getting too close and prevent them getting into danger, it would be tempting to break that if no pictures were coming out and the rewards were likely to be pretty high, people will take it of course. GR: Because there's a lot of money to be made from getting that picture. Because you are somebody with news in your blood and prepared to take the risk of getting radioactive particles in your blood. VS: In my experience there's not always as much money as one might have hoped for in these sorts of situations but I think one would take advice on how to minimise the risk and one might make the decision that one could get away with it and if one could then one would. GR: And if he had made that decision and the pictures were far better Edith Chapin would you have bought them although you wouldn't have put your own people in that position? EC: I don't know that's something that would be discussed but I want to raise something that Gaby raised earlier, it's hard to believe that emergency management officials aren't taking their own pictures. In NY that was one of the main ways that pictures of Ground Zero came out, it seems to me that reporters should be hammering local officials, they may deny it but they are taking pictures for their own evaluation. GR: You get those pictures later, we're talking about now we're talking about 12.40, we're talking about the 1 o/c news SK, you put forward a theory earlier that you wouldn't ask a freelance to do what you wouldn't allow your own people to do, a freelance, Vaughan Smith has got you these pictures rather better focus than those, they're the pictures of the epicenter, of Ground Zero such as it is. SK: Again if I know Vaughan and I trust where he's been and the pictures are legit, we would discus it here but I would say that possibly we're getting close to putting it on the air. GR: You'll put them out like a shot won't you Richard Tait? RT: Yes I would. GR: No discussions at all, it's news? RT: It's news, I'm sorry about the circumstances of this story, Vaughan felt he wanted to do it, I didn't want him to o it and I respect his courage in getting the pictures and it would be completely insane and an insult to the risk he's taken not to put it on the air. It's a great scoop and he should be congratulated for it. GR: And someone will always do it. Just as someone poor will sell their kidneys so will somebody who wants the money or has the courage will do it from the freelance world and you'll put it out end of story because it's news and that's the way the world works. What else are you broadcasting? Tom McKenna, Mike Granatt, your advice was stay indoors and watch TV unfortunately a lot of people are jumping in cars and racing those cars to the French border there is gridlock all around Zeebrugge is clogged there are people jumping on to ferries. Tom McKenna what is that going to do? What is going to happen to them if they take their families and drive out. TMcK: Most likely if they're more than a kilometre or two away it isn't going to make much difference. The key really is two things, you have to trust the local officials and number two people will do whatever they're going to do and there isn't a lot you can do about it. So the best thing the media can do is try to keep hammering in time and time again what offsite officials want you to do. Because that does seem to make a difference if you keep saying it over and over again. GR: Your on the news Dave Butler, what do you tell people about taking their family and heading to France? DB: I think I would take the same line as Tom, unless you're very close to it and we don't know yet how big this bomb was and we can work that out, bomb disposal teams can do it quite easily. Most people that will panic are not actually going to be contaminated. TL: The panic in the cars might kick up the dust even more making the contamination worse. GR: And there'll be gridlock and road-rage. A sensational scoop just in time for the one o/c news at your studio at Isleworth, John Ryley, near Heathrow a man who saw the car blow up and had a Polaroid camera took a picture of the brown Ford exploding, he took a taxi, rushed to the airport, got the last plane out from Brussels before the airport was closed; a brilliant researcher has brought him to your studio. Change clothes, no time for a shower pretty safe, put him on? Eye witness? JR: Yes I think I would. GR: Nik Gowing's the interviewer would you interview him? NG: Most certainly. GR: He's more likely to catch your cold than you are to catch his radiation if you keep him at 6 feet isn't that right? He hasn't been briefed there isn't time, what questions do you ask? NG: Where were you at the time? Describe where you were? GR: "I was opposite a safe distance opposite and I pressed the electronic device and my car blew up! Praise be to Allah! Mr Gowing this is the first of four bombs that are going off today in European capitals if you keep me on this programme I will tell you in a minute where the next one is going off, so you can send your camera crews" NG: I would keep him talking GR: "I am Hashim Muhammed, I am from Slovenia, I am an Al Qaeda operative and I want to tell all Muslims that this is the time to rise up and kill all Americans. Kill them all! This is the signal, our Sheik Bin Laden is great, is greater than the ............ ...

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